Torture, Part II
Lots of comments on my original post on the torture memos. I want to clarify something. I think cutting someone's head off is insane and barbaric. The thought that there are people in the world capable of executing each other with power drills fills me with revulsion. But the thought that our government spent a bunch of time considering the ramifications of putting someone in a box with something that terrifies him and trapped him there, that we considered how much you could push, or slap a person and have it remain civilized and legal, well, that makes me ill, too. All of those things constitute a range of behavior to me that is illegal and inhumane. The reason it repulses me that the United States has done these things is because I hold us to the highest standards. Cutting people's heads off and publicizing it is the refuge of terrorists and cowards. I think America is neither.
That's my reaction as a person. As a reporter, and specifically as a reporter on the workforce beat, this is the question I find interesting. In the Intelligence Community, you have a group of highly specialized workers who, in any given situation, are often under a great deal of pressure and experiencing a great deal of stress. Some members of that community are given orders to do very serious things. Other people in that community have to deal with the ramifications of those actions. Invariably, there will be debate, feelings of ambivalence, revulsion, pride, patriotism, etc. If you are the person tasked with maintaining the general happiness of that workforce, and with overseeing recruiting and retention, how do you cope with the introduction of something like torture to the mix of tasks your agency performs? The intelligence community is a large, increasingly diverse group of individuals, and the reaction to torture as part of interrogation procedures must have been mixed. The media attention must have taken its toll, as must the fear of eventual prosecution. It's a fascinating and important leadership question.
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Government Executive Staff Correspondent Alyssa Rosenberg takes a look at news affecting the management and operations of the massive federal bureaucracy.
Is your purpose to help make these United States a better place or an effort to embarass these United States like the current President is doing every time he visits other countries or when one of them visits the white house. According to the President and other like minded individuals these United States are the root of all evil in this world. God, who needs enemies when we have the likes of you and the President speaking for us.
Dave Posted Friday, April 17, 2009 11:04 AMHas Alyssa Rosenberg ever written a good news story about any subject?
Answerman Posted Friday, April 17, 2009 11:08 AMSo, the author posts a well-reasoned (if unnecessary) follow-up to her original post, and these are the reactions she gets?! Only proves that there is no place for reason in the USA these days.
There is no longer any nuance to political thought. Everybody to the right of Obama is now a cartoon character.
Gregg Posted Friday, April 17, 2009 11:32 AMWhen I was in the Military Police, we were told that if we ever shot and killed someone, we would be court martialed for murder because that would bring all of the facts into the open and prevent law suits, etc. So, it should be with torture. If there is a Hollywood moment where the prisoner knows where a ticking bomb is planted, then violating the rules can be justified in court. Permitting abuse for a fishing expedition, however, is a totally different matter. It breeds sloppy investigations and justifies those who fight us. Ban torture absolutely and mitigate penalties for violators when appropriate.
Ted Bean Posted Friday, April 17, 2009 11:34 AMAlyssa brings up valid arguments, because most Americans do believe in being humane and retaining a standard higher than that held by terrorists, despots, and criminals.
charles.thompson Posted Friday, April 17, 2009 11:58 AMI believe Alyssa's heart is in the right place, though I would ask her and all others with similar views to look just a little deeper past those views. The key is the term "torture." What do we consider torture to be? Certainly, what John McCain endured I would call torture. His treatment had permanent physical effects and it was very painful. Breaking bones, cutting skin and any other body part, burning skin; these are torture. In my opinion, waterboarding, putting someone in a box with a bug, depriving someone of sleep, etc, is not torture. These treatments do not leave permanent scars or injuries, either physical or mental. Are they uncomfortable? Sure, because that is the purpose. And, these methods are only used on the worst of terrorists where the information derived will save American and ally lives.
If you look at the conditions that exist in Guantánamo generally, these people are living better than they deserve, and certainly much better than what they inflicted on their victims.
Maybe it is time for another Black Jack Pershing. He seemed to know how to solve his little terrorist problem.
Perhaps the do gooders and bleeding hearts would do well to read the OpEd in yesterday's WSJ. It was written by intelligent people who KNOW what went on and why - not by those who seem to only want to throw someone under the bus as a result of situational ethics or to further weaken the country.
Bud Posted Friday, April 17, 2009 12:19 PMits fascinating to see how many commentors are more upset with the reporting on this issue than with the substance of it...
Dave's comments seem to suggest that reporting on allowing torture is somehow more of an embarassment than the act of torture itself. I guess we should be glad that the practice of killing the messenger when the King didnt like the message, has been replaced with just blaiming the messenger for it.
Charles T seems to be open to analysis of the issue but then seems to waffle on what is and what isnt torture. Here is a real easy litmus test to apply: If it was a technique used in the Spanish Inquisition (as waterboarding was) then its torture.
I think the President has a valid point when he says that those in DOD or the CIA who committed these acts, acted in good faith (even if wequestion their judgment) based on the legal guidance they got from DOJ. That being said, I think its also legitimate (and preferable) to prosecute those in DOJ who made those decisions and wrote that guidance without any legitimate legal underpinnings. They violated their oath to uphold the Constitution and the laws of this country.
Proud of my country, but embarassed by the decision to toture Posted Friday, April 17, 2009 4:27 PMBring back Tom Shoop. The tone has definitely changed and become tiring to read. Tom provided info and some insight without being a 'parent' to tell us what to think and be an Obama spokesperson.
Chuck Foster Posted Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:01 PMIt is great to see an article and comments bringing out the frustration on torture and how those held were treated but I would ask have you looked at how we treat our own prisoners in the United States. We treat our own worse than those held from 9/11 were treated and nobody goes to bat for them nor do they write articles on them. And God forbid you bring it up to the Dept of Justice because they ignore your letters and comments and refuse to look into how our own Americans are treated. They are in prisons for crimes they have been convicted of maybe rightfully maybe not because we all see the stories where somebody was accused wrongfully. When are we going to start looking at the inhumane treatment our own Americans received from their fellow Americans? Some of you may have loved ones locked up and you know exactly what I'm talking about. How about some reporter doing a story on our prison system and how the prisoners are treated? I know you think they all have the life of luxury but they don't and we need clean our house and our help our fellow Americans before we keep bringing up how foreigners are treated. I haven't seen a prisoner released yet that is given a job and money to start a life in a new country, have you?
Look at us Posted Monday, April 20, 2009 8:51 AMWhy does all this whining on this topic continue. The main stream media has been whipping this dead horse for years. And even after all this hand wringing the American public in numerous polls are in favor of the actions taken
dan m letter Posted Monday, April 20, 2009 11:04 AMThank you for thoughtful comments on these frightening memos. These memos have started me thinking about what orders I would and would not obey at work, what criteria I would use in making a decision, and how far I would go to protect my earning power. It is clear that these memoranda authorized unethical actions that are antithetical to American values yet I can see how a civil servant could let himself be convinced that this would be good for his country.
T Stein Posted Tuesday, April 21, 2009 7:58 AMThanks for keeping your coverage interesting.